Take the fifth!

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viking60
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Take the fifth!

Postby viking60 » 24 Oct 2011, 23:50

In Europe most countries have decided to control the population by saving every electronic trace they leave for at least six months and potentially years,
The motivation is to fight organized crime and terror. And in many cases the ones that will be sitting on the surveying end (politicians bureaucrats and police) argue like the ones opposed to this surveillance, are pro crime.
The German Constitutional court ruled that the right to privacy was a human right, and thus the data retention was against the constitution. So Germany had to revoke the EU imposed data retention directive. :B
Other European countries do obviously have other human rights than the Germans so basically everything you do (let's face it; most of it is electronically these days), can and will be used against you in case you will do something wrong.

Since very few are informed of this up front (because they are not arrested.....yet) you must take the same principle approach like your beloved politicians have:

If it is OK to save data about your every step and the movements of your wife, girlfriend and children - just out of principle- then it must be OK for you to take the "fifth" whenever you are using electronic media.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation


(Boy we really need that one in Europe! But I guess by calling it war you can get around it in the US too.)
Refuse to give personal information on the grounds that it might incriminate you later on, for whatever reason.
Always remember that anything you "say" electronically can be used against you. That is the only reason for saving your electronic data.
In Europe you are under suspicion until proven not guilty. A dramatic change from the presumption that everybody is innocent until proven otherwise,
Sad but true, and no fine words can change that.
So do not write anything or say anything and turn of your mobile phone as often as you can. Use cash instead of credit cards (Wikipedia will most certainly agree on that one). Don't smile and put your face into every camera/smartphone you see (probably impossible for Americans since it is genetic there :mrgreen: ) And be aware that your GPS in your car is electronic too, so your every step is monitored. And what on earth is facial recognition on smartphones good for? Are you so drunk that you cannot otherwise identify the people you have taken a picture of? Finger print identification instead of passwords? Are we all becoming unwilling gatherers of data to put our fellow humans under suspicion? Reflect on that...

In short; take the fifth whenever you can!

Because it is an insult that you and other decent innocent people are monitored by a minority that define themselves competent to put you under suspicion.
And sadly, increasingly impossible to avoid it.....
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rolf
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Re: Take the fifth!

Postby rolf » 24 Oct 2011, 23:58

:berserkf Valhalla!!!

Very nicely put. I fear these ideals of freedom are no longer much more than empty husks, dangled before the masses, then scattered by the winds. :berserk2

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viking60
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Re: Take the fifth!

Postby viking60 » 25 Oct 2011, 01:17

Yes now the very democratic principles that have been a cornerstones of our societies are turned upside down. They don't even have the decency to camouflage it anymore,
Still most people do not have an overview of the implications (and our dear politicians are betting on that).
I think it is important that those who have enough technical insight to imagine the coming disaster speak up about it.
If you buy a lot of cakes and promise never to eat them - would it be wise to trust you?

When they invented the atom bomb they promised never to use it too. If the data are there, they are going to be abused - every single person that has taken history in school knows that.
The safety first policy is dangerous. It is safe to stay in bed your entire life. It is safer to have a camera in the bedroom in case I would like to beat my wife.
And only the ones planing to do so, are against that - right?

I think you are right - we have the words and the rituals left.
The only sure way to eliminate crime is to abolish freedom. Crime wise it is highly effective.
And we surely do not want that!
Let's make sure that we do not unconsciously get there! :berserk2
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viking60
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Re: Take the fifth!

Postby viking60 » 25 Oct 2011, 11:19

A small precision:
It would not make me feel much better if we get there consciously :-D . But then people at least have an active choice, not only floating there.
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dedanna1029
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Re: Take the fifth!

Postby dedanna1029 » 26 Oct 2011, 01:03

I wouldn't take the fifth, I'd tell the straight-up truth, and let them hear what bastards they are for taking away our freedoms. They can send me to prison, hang me, electrocute me, do whatever. I don't care. I will not lie, I will not cover up truth, and I will NOT stand down from how the governments are doing these days. I will NOT shut up! They don't like it, I got one thing for them:

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I flat REFUSE to let them get away with their b.s., because I know one thing for certain:

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... and they need to know it.
I'd rather be a free person who fears terrorists, than be a "safe" person who fears the government.
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viking60
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Re: Take the fifth!

Postby viking60 » 26 Oct 2011, 16:18

Uhm The whole of Europe is trembling now. It is a matter of freedom vs security (and fear). But I wish you would put general labels on governments etc in the political section.
I agree that governments are involved in the data retention issue and can be criticized (or praised) for that, but you are rapidly moving away from the data retention issue here and over to the "Government sucks" issue.
Heavy news like that can be put in the political section. It is acceptable when linked to the data retention, but freedom, in general, belongs in the political section too.
There you can discuss whether Government works or not with all those interested.
It can stay: But I don't want this thread to be about how much Governments in general, suck.
.......
There are differences:
In Germany the system clearly works and they have had an informed debate about with high awareness of the issues involved.
In Norway the Government tried to sneak it in through the back door with some success (and not to many people cared).
Romania has ruled it unconstitutional like Germany :B
And the Tchek Republic did rule in unconstitutional in April of 2011.
The "eat shit one billion flies can't be wrong" argument is crumbling away. An argument that was much used in Norway, especially by our foreign minister.
I find it interesting that the countries opposing the EU Data Retention Directive are very young democracies who only recently have been able to enjoy democracy.
Many people remember the alternative where a data retention regulation like that, would have been the dictators wet dream.
Spoiled and lucky brats, like the Norwegians are naive and lack the imagination to foresee what an instrument like that can be used for in the wrong hands.
Or even worse: They think there never can be "wrong hands" in Norway.
After that idiot bombed Oslo and shot all those kids - there is only the safety issue. And a lot of acceptance for increased surveillance.
It is hard to blame people that are afraid, but the long term effects of this will be ugly and more scary in my eyes.
Image
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dedanna1029
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Re: Take the fifth!

Postby dedanna1029 » 27 Oct 2011, 01:05

We wouldn't be discussing data retention if it weren't for governments.
I'd rather be a free person who fears terrorists, than be a "safe" person who fears the government.
No gods, no masters.
"A druid is by nature anarchistic, that is, submits to no one."
http://uk.druidcollege.org/faqs.html

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viking60
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Re: Take the fifth!

Postby viking60 » 27 Oct 2011, 08:57

:tux5: Yes let us discuss data retention
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