Trying The Linux Switch Again

[Snorkasaurus]

Hey v60,

I just tried out scite and it was actually awful. I started making a list of thing I didn't like, but most of it boils down to having a ridiculous configuration. I can understand how the global/local/user config files division happened, but having to configure eight lines in a text file to achieve mono font is way over the top. It has strange window form properties as well like always having a horizontal scroll bar, and a hidden split window that can be found by opening the editor and resizing the window smaller from the right hand side before sizing any other direction. I actually didn't even get as far as testing to see if it could delete all lines with selected text.

I think I have found a perfect distro for you too I am wrapping up a review on it as we "speak".....

I'm not so sure... there are a few things from the review that stand out at me.

I'm not so sure that I'd call myself a newbie, I have been screwing with Linux since the mid 90's... I just have some significant differences of opinion about practical implementation decisions. For example:

1. sudo: I think that su and sudo are just UAC for Linux. If the concept is to log on with a non-administrative account to save yourself from screwing things up then what is to stop someone from typing sudo at the beginning of the same command and doing the damage? I can get behind not running remotely available services as root, but not limited accounts.
2. GUI vs. CLI: There are some folks who insist that CLI is the best way to do everything, and they are wrong. Some things are easier or quicker to do by GUI simply because some tasks don't scale well to CLI use. Anyone who disagrees won't be persuaded to think about it anyways so I'll leave it at that.
3. Hardware turnover: I very rarely buy brand new hardware, and strongly prefer to buy (or inherit) older hardware. Today (in 2014) I would like to consider a P4/3GHz with 1G of memory to be a perfectly reasonable desktop PC, but typical "desktop" distros of Linux will run like a sloth on that kind of hardware... and the distros that are supposed to be considered "small" are meant to run off CD or USB stick, or are a special "admin tool" distro, or are meant to be on embedded devices, or generally run on something other than my cheap piece of crap PC. Linux is praised by some people as being able to run on crappy older hardware but it truly is not designed to be slim any more.

I don't mind being a mechanic, I just don't want to mill my own lug nuts.
I do like Xfce, but don't like FireFox or Thunderbird.
I tried a few "new to me" distros recently and found at least one that offered a "software center" of some kind that essentially offered a one-click install for software but I truly despise that. I REALLY don't like the idea that a software installer would be perfectly willing to install large amounts of dependency software without even asking or informing the user. It is almost as scummy as those cheesy Windows apps (like FireFox) that offer a "stub" installer that is quite small and downloads a pile of junk during the install to give the illusion that the application is tiny and the false premise that it should therefore run quickly.

So far SolydX lives up to it's slogan:
Linux desktop made easy

I'm looking for "Linux desktop made functional".

I'm downloading SolydX now on my terrible connection... hopefully it'll be done by morning so I can try it out.

S.

[viking60]

Easy is functional. I have noticed your liking of Debian and dto "crappy" HW. This should run on it. In fact I will install it on an old laptop with less than one Gig of memory. It runs on Mageia XFCE today.

The Enterprise version is good for people who do not like changes (aka most Linux users). I have not tested it long enough to be able to say anything about that.
So you tell me

Regarding Scite; I used it with the Auto-it macro language under Windows - it was quite powerful. But it toke a while to set up.

[Snorkasaurus]

Easy is functional.

I am not sure that I agree with that in all cases. Take Windows 7 file search for example... I would say that it is easier than XP's file search facility, but I sure wouldn't call it functional. I think train wreck is a more accurate term. And to me, functional also means "not full of frivolous crap". Take Ubuntu/Unity for example... there are still lots of people who recommend it (right or wrong) as a "starter" distro because it is easy, but it is also full of small, unnecessary features that I call glitter. In my mind, the ability to manage multiple monitors, resolution, orientation, and position should be much easier to access than colour gradient desktop colour... and yet it is much easier to configure the gradient in Unity.

I have noticed your liking of Debian and dto "crappy" HW. This should run on it. In fact I will install it on an old laptop with less than one Gig of memory. It runs on Mageia XFCE today.

The Enterprise version is good for people who do not like changes (aka most Linux users). I have not tested it long enough to be able to say anything about that.
So you tell me

I just checked my torrent box and the download finished some time last night, I'll give it a shot this afternoon and see. :-)

Regarding Scite; I used it with the Auto-it macro language under Windows - it was quite powerful. But it toke a while to set up.

I ended up biting the bullet and dumping 300M of wine on my machine so I could run Notepad++... I guess I will use it for something else later anyways. What did you use Auto-IT for? Was it scripting application installations? I kind of preferred ACTool for mouse/keyb automation and NSIS for application installs (which obviously required more work but a more reliable installation process).

S.

[viking60]

I used Auto it for fancy desktop menus on portable apps and servers on USB sticks. I used it to connect to the "cloud". Having a full blown server on an USB stick with all the programs and the Mysql database in the "cloud".
Auto it downloaded the license file that made the encrypted PHP work (my program). Nothing would work if you could not log in because then the License file would not be fetched from the server to the dongle - so even hacking it would be useless.

That way your data are safe when you unplug the dongle and even if you lose it - just get a new dongle and log in and all your reports and data will be there.
Popping Notepad with fancy live Readme info (macros) ++++

It is more safe than installing the program to a laptop.

And SolydX looks promising so far - so I am sitting on the edge of my chair here to hear your verdict. It does seem "light" and snappy enough....
It might be my new recommendation to greenhorns but I need to install it on "crappy" hardware first to make sure.

This cannot be taken lightly...

[Snorkasaurus]

I used Auto it for fancy desktop menus on portable apps and servers on USB sticks. I used it to connect to the "cloud". Having a full blown server on an USB stick with all the programs and the Mysql database in the "cloud".
Auto it downloaded the license file that made the encrypted PHP work (my program). Nothing would work if you could not log in because then the License file would not be fetched from the server to the dongle - so even hacking it would be useless.

That way your data are safe when you unplug the dongle and even if you lose it - just get a new dongle and log in and all your reports and data will be there.
Popping Notepad with fancy live Readme info (macros) ++++

Now that sounds pretty cool.

And SolydX looks promising so far - so I am sitting on the edge of my chair here to hear your verdict. It does seem "light" and snappy enough....
It might be my new recommendation to greenhorns but I need to install it on "crappy" hardware first to make sure.

Well, my verdict might not be so good... I am just finishing up the install now because I found out (the hard way) that it will not install on less than 1G of memory in VirtualBox.

S.

[viking60]

Just about 1 GB will be sufficient to test the lightweight capacaties I think.

[Snorkasaurus]

Just about 1 GB will be sufficient to test the lightweight capacaties I think.

I would like to think that any Linux distro that specifically wants to call itself light should install in less than a gig of memory but I doubt many people would agree. So I increased my VM's memory to a gig and completed the install... the installer told me:

Unlike other Linux distributions SolydX is also ready to play mp3s, DVDs and Flash video as soon as you run it.

The phrase Unlike other Linux distributions explicitly states that no other distribution is ready to play mp3s, DVDs or Flash... and this is simply not the case.

FireFox, Thunderbird, Abiword, Gnumeric, and XChat come pre-installed in SolydX...

Fortunately you can remove them.

SolydX is compatible with most popular file formats: zip, doc, xls, pdf, rar, mp3, wmv, mpg, mp4, mov, etc.

I don't think I need to point out the subtle error here.

The welcome box told me that my hardware supports PAE and gave me the option to install PAE drivers automatically. I did the install but the VM no longer booted until I actually added PAE to the VM settings. If the OS is going to take the time to recognize that PAE is supported, it should also take the time to see if it is enabled too. Plymouth gives the illusion that it boots very quickly but it in fact isn't much different than Wheezy... once you remove Plymouth and a bunch of other fat it does actually boot faster than Wheezy. I was happy to see that VirtualBox Guest Additions works fine out of the box with VBox v4.3.6 (which I assume is actually out of date by now) but disappointed to see that the install is well over 5Gigs and includes the ugly Windows 7 style menu. The good news is that I was able to access Samba shares out of the box, but the bad news is that the archive manager could not open compressed archives on a samba share properly... the app opens empty with no archive. Copying the archive file locally allows it to be opened. Sadly, winbind and netbios are installed by default but neither is actually required for accessing samba shares and nobody should be using a non-routable chatty protocol like netbios anymore (especially not newbs). I started to trim the fat such as

• jdk7 (breaks software manager and user management from menu, also changes font in terminal window)
• clamav
• exim4 (does not replace with another MTA like Debian does which is good)
• netbios and winbind
• b43-fwcutter (Broadcom wireless drivers which should not be installed if I do not have a Broadcom wireless NIC)
• bluez* (this kills network manager)

Why kill jdk7? Lean. An OS that is going to claim "light" as one of its primary features should not have a pig like Java installed by default. Why exim? Because newbs should be using their ISP's mail server and advanced users should have a local MTA that is monitored and secured as required. winbind, netbios, fw-cutter, bluez* ... all stuff that is completely unnecessary.

At this point I found myself frustrated with simple interface idiosyncrasies and an OS that was starting to show signs of dependency problems. The window manager configuration was scattered and ugly (typical of xfce), the default title bars are so hard to tell which window is focused (typical of xfce), and when your terminal window loses its font because jdk is uninstalled then you know it won't be able to handle the rest of the cleaning it needed.

In short, it is no more lean than Xubuntu which suffers from many of the same issues or XP which suffers from massive political and intellectual property problems. I don't see any reason to not recommend it to newbs (they'll have more than a gig of memory and will love the Windows 7 menu style anyways) but I don't see any advantage over Xubuntu which I believe (I will check) does install in 512M of memory or XP which will certainly install in less than a gig of memory.

PS: I don't want you to think that I am just argumentative, I truly wish I could find "a Linux that fits me"... I just haven't found one. I was thinking of doing a "Linux From Scratch" to see what I come up with but I still don't think it'll make me happy. As soon as I come across an application that requires gnome, kde, or java I will be stumped. Guess I am doomed.

S.

[viking60]

Linux from scratch is just a book where you learn how to build anything from the Kernel.
It is no distro - but it can become one if you are successful.
If you are thinking about an approach where you are in total control of what to install then Arch is an option - it takes experience though.
There you can pick lxde or Openbox - in fact you can install Openbox and drop XFCE alltogether in SolydX too.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2251&hilit=openbox

And the Whisker menu is good imo

I have XP in VB and I can tell you that it needs way more memory than SolydX and it is still slow...

[Snorkasaurus]

I have done an LFS before, but it has been a long time... unfortunately I think it'll give me the same problems that I'd have with any distribution (including Arch): it needs applications. Apps are developed by people who already have their own desktop environment and pre-existing dependencies. I can't get past the idea of having xfce and installing a bunch of gnome-based dependencies just to use a 5MB application... or kde dependencies, or java, or etc. To me that goes against all of the minimalist qualities an OS should have. It doesn't really matter which distro I try, or even if I try building from scratch, I'll still run in to this.

Actually the Xubuntu experiment I am trying right now is an attempt to get me away from XP running on VirtualBox in 1G of memory (on the same host I used for SolydX). It has been running as my primary desktop like a champ (even when running a second XP VM that I keep my video conversion software on). If you're having trouble getting XP to run in a VB machine with 1G of memory you should try dumping .NET, Java, VC++/VB runtime, etc. and see if that helps.

S.

[viking60]

I do not have trouble running XP in a VB It just takes more than 1 GB to function well. In fact I don't have trouble in running XP from a CD (Bart PE). It has rescued my bacon several times, But these days the Linux CD's do a better job.

If you want to go minimalistic; put Puppy on a stick and use that - it is great and fast - I always have it in my pocket (attached to the keys).

All programs need something to run if you want "apartheid" you must chose side; Chakra has chosen the Qt side - but FF is GTK. Pick your programs according to that (QT or GTK) and you will stay "small".

The problem you have is that you have way to many programs to choose from

[dedanna1029]

PDF Viewer - Meh. Use Adobe Reader and get over it. LibreOffice has a pdf converter also, from .doc or ?whatever to .pdf.

I swear by gedit for text and even for my html (since I do my own code for sites). Can tab and do the rest you mentioned in your OP.

CD/DVD burner, I'm a bit pickier and more closed-source for it too with NeroLinux.

If Seamonkey (and you're correct in this), which in most distros is now Ice-something-or-other, is so similar to Firefox and you don't want to go down the Firefox road? That's what you're doing, using Firefox addons, etc. - I used it back in its 1.x days, used the Seamonkey suite, but soon as they went 2.x, that did it.

Go look yerself up SRWare Iron browser - it's a Chrome clone that's privacy minded, and yes, it can use Chrome addons.

Ad blocking? Install the AdBlock Plus addon to your browser - it works a treat. You can even block elements with it.

[Snorkasaurus]

Hey dedanna1029,

PDF Viewer - Meh. Use Adobe Reader and get over it. LibreOffice has a pdf converter also, from .doc or ?whatever to .pdf.

That's basically what I did... Version 9.5 isn't terribly big and although it is a little slow to load, once it is running it ain't so bad. I'm not a big Libre Office fan because it likes Java. I know it is possible to install it without Java on Windows but don't know how to grab it from repos without Java (and don't much care, I just don't install it).

I swear by gedit for text and even for my html (since I do my own code for sites). Can tab and do the rest you mentioned in your OP.

Does it do "line bookmarking"? Specifically can it remove all lines that have a certain search text? I haven't actually seen another editor that can.

CD/DVD burner, I'm a bit pickier and more closed-source for it too with NeroLinux.

Sweet, thanks for the suggestion... I'm going to check this one out this weekend!

If Seamonkey (and you're correct in this), which in most distros is now Ice-something-or-other, is so similar to Firefox and you don't want to go down the Firefox road? That's what you're doing, using Firefox addons, etc. - I used it back in its 1.x days, used the Seamonkey suite, but soon as they went 2.x, that did it.

I wouldn't say that SeaMonkey is "so similar to FireFox"... It is made by Mozilla and it has adopted the quick-release schedule, but it has no awesome bar, a different tabbing layout, a status bar, slightly more granular default security controls, sync/weave/whatever (which FF may have actually added), and a smaller memory footprint. The thing I like the most about both of them is the extensive addon repository... which makes me wonder why they want to kill addons with their quick release schedule.

Go look yerself up SRWare Iron browser - it's a Chrome clone that's privacy minded, and yes, it can use Chrome addons.

I have actually tried it a couple of times. On 2012-07-14 I took these notes:

• There is no good way to configure Iron's omnibox autocomplete feature
• An addon is required to make Bookmarks usable
• It does not offer a skinnless mode
• The syntax for cookie exceptions sucks
• AdBlock is not as good as the Adblock that works with SeaMonkey
• An addon is required to clear cookies, history, etc. when exiting the browser
• Incognito mode is only a workaround, a checkbox is the proper way to do that
• Syncing profile data can only be done on Google's servers via a Google Account
• It is not possible to choose to save tabs when closing the browser
• Does not support session recovery after a crash

I am pretty sure that a few of these (AdBlock regex support, session recovery) may have been fixed since then but in a more recent testing I still had notes about cookie policy, skinned appearance, bookmark access, and opening downloaded files with associated applications. SeaMonkey seems to be the best I have found so far but I wish I could build it as a browser only and fix the RSA false start (and other related data manager) garbage.

Ad blocking? Install the AdBlock Plus addon to your browser - it works a treat. You can even block elements with it.

This is actually my most used addon for SeaMonkey. I love the Element Hiding Helper, and I maintain my own block list that I use across my PC's. When I setup a new PC or OS that doesn't yet have ABP I sometimes will log in to Facebook or YouTube just to see how bad it can be. :-)

S.